While Big Law has a long way to go toward truly diversifying their lawyer ranks at all levels, diverse young attorneys entering the pipeline certainly have some role models in high places within the legal community.
On Wednesday, two diverse leaders in law, Covington & Burling’s Eric Holder and Zynga general counsel Phuong Phillips, came together at Zynga’s headquarters in San Francisco to share their experiences as minority lawyers.
Holder, the nation’s first black attorney general, rejoined Covington as a white-collar partner in 2015 after serving for six years at the U.S. Department of Justice. Last year he led Uber’s internal investigation into workplace harassment and discrimination, producing a lengthy report and recommendations for the ride-hailing business. The outspoken former U.S. attorney general also penned a new op-ed in The Washington Post late Wednesday, calling Attorney General William Barr an unfit successor due to “nakedly partisan” actions and loyalty to President Donald Trump.
Tesla Inc. alum Phuong Phillips took over the role of chief legal officer at Zynga in 2017. As one of the few female leaders in tech law, Phillips has been an advocate for increasing diversity in her industry, and in the legal field.
Following a fireside chat at Zynga, The Recorder caught up with Holder and Phillips to further discuss how outside counsel and in-house departments can work together to push for a more diverse profession.
What is the status of diversity and inclusion in the legal industry? What can we do to improve that?
Phillips: When you think about diversity and inclusion in the legal field, it is still in progress, and it will be in progress for quite some time. But it is the responsibility of the in-house counsel to make the changes, both internally as well as externally in terms of hiring outside counsel. So it’s very important for me to make sure that when I interview … that I list the importance of diversity on the legal team that’s going to be representing us. I’m not sure if you’re aware but Zynga actually has a very diverse team—75% of our team happens to be women, and 50% are people of color, and every lawyer who reports directly to me is a person of color. So it really starts with us to make sure that we give diversity and inclusion a voice.
Holder: Our profession is not yet where it needs to be. Law firms are trying to do a better job, certainly working with our partners, our clients who require more diversity. At Covington, we look at our last partner class, we had 14 people who made partner this year, nine were women, and six are [from] ethnically diverse backgrounds. That’s an indication of where our firm is and the importance that we place on diversity. But as I always say … there is not a tension between diversity and excellence. The people in that partner class from this year are great lawyers, every one of them. One of the things that we have to try to do at firms is to make sure that as we are recruiting at the summer associate level, we’re cognizant of who’s in the class [and] what the diversity of the class looks like. Because it’s from those summer classes that we ultimately get the vast majority of the people who turn out to be the young lawyers and ultimately the partners in our firm.
It sounds like firms and their clients almost act as checks and balances on each other. How can the two parties work together to improve diversity?
Holder: I worked on the Uber matter when I was in Covington, and we made a list of these 42 recommendations. [They included] ways in which people of color [and] women would get opportunities at the company that they were not getting [before the report]. There was a need to increase sensitivity and also to put in place mechanisms. The Rooney Rule is something that we use, and I know that Phuong uses it as well, where you require that there’s a promotional opportunity—a diverse slate of candidates has to be put together. And then from that slate, let me pick who the best person is. And I think what you’ve seen through the use of the Rooney Rule is that selections become more diverse. You have more people of color, more women who get opportunities that they otherwise might not have had the chance to get.
Phillips: The key is to increase the funnel and make sure that the funnel incorporates people that you typically won’t consider. I think a lot of it comes from job specs, where you see something and typically there are 10 things that you have to follow in order to apply for a job. There is this philosophy that men and women are a little different when you’re looking at a job spec, and that men will say: “Yeah, I hit it, I can totally apply because I hit two out of ten.” When a woman would say: “Man, I only got eight out of 10; maybe I shouldn’t apply.” So, I think for us, in-house, we are trying to getting rid of that type of description where it feels like it’s male-centric or female-centric. That’s what we’re working toward in order to be more successful in terms of recruiting.
Holder: [You want to] have people like Phuong who are in these really important general counsel positions, who not only have the capacity to have an impact on her company, but—because of her interactions with law firms—can influence how law firms hire. If she’s true to her word and she is—that I’m going to look more favorably upon firms that present to diverse teams to work on the issues that we have—that forces law firms to do things in a certain way.
How do you ensure that fulfilling diversity requirements does not just become a numbers game?
Phillips: One thing that frustrates me is that people presume that if you bring along a diverse candidate, and just use that person as sort of the figure, that’s enough. And that’s not enough! What’s enough is I need to know that this person is working on [the matter, and] I’m talking to this person. It’s not just a person, I want a diverse group, so I want the whole group to be very thoughtful. … I want to hire the strongest team, but I want to make sure that you understand how important my initiative and platform are in increasing diversity and inclusion. Don’t bring in somebody just to sit there and smile at me because that’s not going to work either.
Holder: We’re talking about diversity and inclusion. Inclusion really means giving people of color [and] women real opportunities, the chance to shine, the chance to really be a part of a team and not simply to show up when you’re making a pitch, as outside counsel, but to actually be involved in the solution of the issue that you’ve been hired to do. You have to have both diversity and inclusion and they are different.
What has been working? What else can be done?
Phillips: As you said, it’s a check and balance, we have to have communication and what I’ve found to be really helpful is having conversations with this senior partner on the account saying, “Hey, you must know how important this is to me.” I want to make sure that whoever is working on my account [is someone to whom I have access]. I want to make sure that this person also has access to me. That’s a little bit more difficult because many times senior partners are like, “Oh no, you’re the general counsel so I just want to talk to you.” It’s like no, I want to talk to the people who are actually working on this. And if it’s a diverse person, I want to be able to be in that person’s life [and] maybe, eventually, be a mentor.
Holder: I think what Phuong just described is extremely important. I think the role that she plays as a prominent GC on a macro level can have an impact on the profession. It’s not just a question of what a company is doing [or] what a law firm is doing, [but] what the legal profession is going to look like. When you have successful women as GCs, [or] former attorneys general of color at law firms, being successful at what they do, that’s an indication that, again, there’s not that tension there, [which] too many people think still exists between diversity and excellence. It also shows young people, young lawyers, that if you work hard, and if opportunities are given to you, that you can succeed.